Guest: Winnie da Silva Host: Beau Billington   Beau  0:12   Hello, everybody! Beau Billington with The Free Agent Podcast yet once again, I’ve got Winnie da Silva here joining me. Thank you so much for joining, Winnie. Winnie  0:19   Thank you, Beau. It’s good to be here.   Beau  0:21   So today’s topic is executive coaching, what is it and why such a hot topic right now and how maybe a growing business could utilize such a resource and wanted to have Winnie on because she’s an executive coach for many many years, a leadership consultant, and also helps companies build effective teams.  So prior to jumping in everything wants you tell us a little bit more about what you do and why you do it.   Winnie  0:46   Sure. So yeah, I do those three things. So executive coaching, leadership development, team effectiveness work. I also have my own podcast, which is called Transformative Leadership Conversations, not only just talking to leaders, my clients, and other great people about their leadership journey.    So do all four of those things. And for me, why I do it, I really love helping people, helping people come to insights, helping people have those “aha” moments in terms of who they are, their performance, achieving success, becoming great leaders. So I guess that’s the short version of it. Beau  1:26  I love that. It’s amazing how much more effective you can be if you’re actually passionate about your career and your job. And that’s why I had to start my own business, four and a half- five years ago, because I wasn’t passionate about what I was doing, something out there that I could do for the next 2030 years, I would actually enjoy.  And it’s amazing. It shines through with you. When you’re talking, you’ve got this great energy. And so it’s really nice to talk to somebody that actually likes what they do for a career. So kudos to you. Congratulations. Winnie  1:52  Thank you. It’s funny, I just want to comment on what you’re saying. It’s like, you can be good at a lot of things. But are you enjoying it? Do you love it? And sometimes those can be different?    Beau  2:02   I was absolutely, if you’re not happy it shines through, which has a negative effect most of the time. So how did you get into executive coaching? Winnie  2:13 Yeah, it’s sort of an interesting road. So I started out actually, in social work, I have a master’s degree in social work. And then after doing that, for a couple of years, I realized it wasn’t a good field for me. And part of the reason is because I felt like I’m the kind of person who wants to get things done, make progress and drive forward. And social work is really you’re talking about really embedded long term issues and challenges that people are dealing with.    Beau  2:42 So just a slog, Winnie  2:45 Exactly, really high burnout, slow burn. So I didn’t know what I wanted to do, did a bunch of informational interviews, tried to figure things out and really luckily landed in business consulting, which was kind of a far cry from social work.  And started out actually doing some training. And then moved into business consulting there in a change management practice with Arthur Andersen Business Consulting. And so when Arthur Andersen died, basically went to work for one of our clients as their head of learning development, which was another great kind of big learning curve. And then, when I had my first daughter I really wanted to have more flexibility in my life. And back then that wasn’t something that people did, it wasn’t a thing.   Beau  3:34   Absolutely, you have a family? Oh, I’m so sorry for that. Winnie  3:38  And now it’s very different. But back then it was like, Well, can I do this? Can I try that? Nope, nope, we just want you here. So I’m like, it’s just not gonna work out. Ironically, they actually ended up bringing me back on. And they ended up becoming my first client, which was really wonderful. And in fact, I still work with them today. So like 16-17 years later, and then just started on my own doing this kind of work.  So it’s been an interesting journey. But I kind of feel like doing social work and doing business consulting, even though they sound like they’re on different ends of the spectrum, really, I think, give me a unique perspective and view into executive coaching, because it’s about the person holistically. But it’s also about getting business results.   Beau  4:23   I think I like when you said that they were on all sides of the spectrum. Yeah, I get that. But for me, there seems to be a tremendous amount of overlap. You know, it’s a natural progression for somebody, especially one that wants to move quicker, see results faster, but then have flexibility that you can have with your own business.  And so, congrats to you too, for working for a company then being able to flip that into your first client. That doesn’t always happen.  So why do you personally believe that Executive Coaching is so impactful for organizations. And, of course, it’s been around, excuse me for ages. But in the last three, five years, it’s really kind of exploded in growth. And so why do you personally feel that your companies can benefit from leveraging somebody with your expertise?   Winnie  5:05 Yeah, no, it’s a great question. And it really has expanded and become more sort of normal, right people are really wanting this more. I mean, honestly, I think that people, there’s a lot going on in people’s lives, more and more.  And obviously, with the pandemic, that’s just made things even worse. But I think, when you’ve got stuff going on personally and professionally, organizations are more tuned into wanting to really not only tell, show people that we care about you, in terms of benefits, and that kind of thing, but actually put behind some real emphasis.  And I think, giving people an opportunity to get executive coaching really says something to people, like, I really care about you, I care about your career, I care about where you’re going. And I think in some ways that really offers the organization not only a way to say that I support you, but to get that business results at the same time.  Because when you think about the kind of work that I do, I usually work within an organization. And what that will end up meaning is it’s not just about that person, hey, can you help that person, there’s this person over here, it’s like, this is like all about the organization too when I learned in social work is it’s like about systems, it’s about the environment, and how everything affects each other.  So when I’m working with an executive, and I’m like doing a 360, and talking to some of the people, some of either their manager or their peers or their direct reports, one of the questions that I ask is, how can you support this person. So in some ways, what I’m doing, I’m coaching that person, but in some ways, I’m kind of coaching the environment and coaching people around them too, because they are going to play an integral, a very important role in helping that person be successful.    Beau  6:53   It’s interesting. I like the point you brought up about maybe being an added benefit to the executive team. So they feel that the company is truly invested in their success, both personally as well as professionally and I agree, COVID really changed. It’s blurred the lines between home and work. And I think it’s great personally, I mean, I’ve got a family. When my kids, three years ago, would bust into my office, I’m on a zoom, and I would be, I’d be anxious, I’d be embarrassed. And now honestly, it just kind of comes with the territory, and I am 100% okay with that, because that’s my real life. That’s who I am. Right? So I think it’s great.  So are you kind of like one part business coach, one part like life coach therapist, is that? Is it really kind of a blend of the two?  Winnie  7:35   It’s a really interesting question. I almost feel like you’d have to ask my clients. I mean, I really focus on business consulting, business coach, I really focus on the executive. So when I think of the work that I do, I’m thinking of, how can I help you be successful? And when I think about you being successful, the most successful people that I work with, when I know that I’m making a real difference, they’re seeing changes, not just at work, but at home.  And that’s when I know that whatever changes they’re trying to make, or whatever kind of development they’re working on, it’s going deep, because it’s impacting their whole life. So I wouldn’t really say that I do life coaching, I really do focus on the business, but you can’t help a business as an executive be successful, unless it touches them personally. So I don’t know if that makes sense.    Beau  8:30   No, it totally does. And when you mentioned the 360 degree view, it kind of all came together when you’re mentioning the human component as well. So it’s really kind of the view of that person’s ecosystem. And yeah, they are a person after all, and so that does. Absolutely. Winnie  8:59   Yeah. It’s funny, I had a client a while ago, and she said to me, she was working on actually, this was kind of unusual, because she kind of had a temper and kind of lash out to some of her colleagues and direct reports and she was getting better. She was definitely kind of thinking through what’s triggering her, what are the reasons why, what’s the mindset behind why this is happening? And she said to me one day, now, I don’t I can’t yell at the waitress for getting my eggs wrong.   Beau  9:25 She shouldn’t do that anyways, right? Winnie  9:27  I mean, she sent me to do that anyway, but she realized she was changing and she literally couldn’t, she couldn’t not bring that change to like the restaurant. Beau  9:36   That’s fantastic. That’s real progress. We are the person that yells at the waiters. Right?  So the other question for you, if you look at an organization, maybe you haven’t had a conversation with the executive leadership team, what are some of the warning signs that maybe you look out for in regards to whether or not they need executive coaching? Is it turnover? Is it a hostile environment? Like what’s the catalyst for somebody really needing to hire a Winning? Winnie  10:06   So I would actually flip that question around, to be honest, because normally, it can go both ways. So I don’t want to discount that kind of situation. But a lot of times what’s happening is someone’s gotten promoted. Right? And it’s like, wow, this is a big jump for me, can I handle it? Is this something that I can really, I have a learning curve, right? So I need some help getting over this learning curve. Or I’m being really successful in a lot of areas, but for whatever reason, I’ve got some blind spots. Or by the way, I just don’t know what my blind spots are. I just want to uncover them. Like, I just want to be as good as I can be. And these blind spots, I know that I’m not sure I know about, I want to make sure I uncover them and hit them.  So I think I’d turn that question around. Certainly there are people where it’s like there are some grumblings, but unless there’s like, unless this person is already high performing, I don’t really advise executive coaching to come in and help sort of fix a situation, because that’s not usually helpful.  And in fact, in that kind of situation, usually what coaching needs to have, where coaching is most helpful is actually with their boss, because they haven’t been able to, or they haven’t been able to give them feedback. They haven’t been able to sit down and say, This is really what’s not working.  And in fact, that’s the person who needs the coaching, because they need to be able to give that feedback to the executive. So there’s lots of reasons why, but I would say, I personally enjoy working with those folks who it’s like, maybe they’ve got something that’s like there’s something that’s not quite working. But at times, it’s like, Hey, I’m just hungry to learn and grow, let’s go to the next level. Beau  11:55  But who are you having this conversation with, because I feel like self realization, like doing a real audit about who you are, in your own gaps is very difficult. So are you typically having that discussion with maybe their boss who’s like, hey, we need some help with Bobby, over here. Who are you having this conversation with? Typically? Winnie  12:15   It can go both ways, actually. So many times, it’s the organization who reaches out to me to say, hey, we’ve got this person, we’d like to get them some coaching, give them support. Sometimes people reach out to me and say, I’d like to get coaching, and I’m going to convince my company to pay for it, or they’re going to, or I’m going to, or maybe they’ll pay for half of it, and I’ll pay for the other half. I think that’s great, too. So usually it kind of depends on the company’s culture, and how they think about coaching. Beau  12:49  So if they’re really progressive, then maybe they’re going to be on top of it and reach out proactively to win to ensure that the people they have in the are in the right seats at the right time, and do the right things.   Winnie  13:00   And how you can tell if the company has a culture of where executive coaching is welcomed, it depends on who I talked to, like when I meet them for the first time to see if it’s a good fit. They’re like, honored that they might get an executive coach. At another company, they’re like, oh, shoot, what happened? Why am I getting an Executive Coach? Beau  13:21   I want one. I mean, seriously, like, I think it’s fantastic. Winnie  13:25 Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. But there are some words like, oh, you know, the only people who get coaching here, we know there’s a problem. And that’s not a great situation, right? Beau  13:34   It’s probably not the right fit for you either, because you’re coming in at a deficit. All eyes are on you, the coaching and this individual. And it kind of starts with a negative connotation versus like it’s a good thing.  They’re good coaching to be better, not because they’re deficient. That’s exactly right. That’s an interesting point. I think it’s a good segue to the next question.  So I think about executive coaching. I think of fortune 500, maybe fortune 100, fortune 50, large, large, large companies, they’ve spent and invested a tremendous amount in their executives, and so they can’t be a flight risk. And so again, going back to the earlier point, this is kind of an added benefit to them. So executive coaching, good for both big and small companies? Is it better suited for large multinational companies? What are your thoughts there? Winnie  14:19  Yeah, really interesting question, especially back to what you asked about first, right in terms of the growth of executive coaching and all that.  I would say that every company could benefit from coaching, no matter how big or how small. Now, it all goes back to budget, right? And like, what can you afford? I mean, honestly, I mean, obviously, this you could see them as a competition, but I think there’s some really nice opportunities right now to actually look into other organizations that do executive coaching, it’s not the same thing.  When you’re talking about virtual like better up and organizations like that, where it’s like, it’s very accessible, the price point is very low. It’s not the same thing that I offer at all. But you know what, I don’t have to coach everybody, you know what I mean? And you know what I think better up actually provides at least an entry into coaching for people at a junior level, who might be at an organization that might be quite small, that can be really great. So I think that it can be really for everybody, it’s a matter of finding, you know, the right fit. Beau  15:31   That’s great. So the bottom line is, all companies, companies of all sizes are primed for executive coaching, obviously, budgets can be a big factor determinant, as to who you can work with, but there’s options out there for both small as well as large companies. Winnie  15:44   Exactly. And I’ve done both. I mean, I, one of my clients that I worked with, early on in my career, it was just him and one other employee when we started, and then he grew his company to like 15 people. He recently sold it over the last year, I still work with him. And he’s referred me to so many people. And he was a great client, we did training, we did HR stuff. I mean, I helped him in so many ways, and I love working with him and his company. And that’s very different from what I might do today, although I do work with a lot of startups, too. And they’re so fun to work with, because they’re hungry, they’re edgy, in terms of doing interesting things, both in terms of the stuff that they do, but also in terms of thinking about how they think about leadership. So I love working with those guys, too. Beau  16:30   Got it? No, it makes sense. Are there any industries that you’d say are more primed for coaching than others? Winnie  16:37   I really don’t think so. I really don’t. If you’ve got leaders, you’ve got people who have teams and you want results? No, I mean, I work in construction management, I work in private equity, I work in media and fashion, everywhere, which I love, because I love I mean, I’m motivated by learning and change for me. And so to be able to work in so many different industries, it’s super fun. Beau  17:07   Got it.  Winnie  17:09   Yeah, really fun. Beau  17:10   No, I love that. It’s very broad, very diverse, and answers a question, which is great. So are there general areas that maybe individuals or companies are most interested in being coached? Like, what are the hotspots? The last one, three years? And what areas in which do you focus the most personally? Winnie  17:27   You mean, in terms of like, topics  Beau  17:31   Yeah. areas for actual executive coaching? What are you looking for? Is it you know, personal management? Is it? Winnie  17:36   So, it’s interesting. I mean, leadership is really the key, right. And but when you say leadership, what does that mean? And I think what happens in our sort of society, not only are we pretty isolated, and we don’t have a lot of, I think people feel like they don’t have a lot of people they can reach out to, which is why executive coaching I think is really hot right now. It’s kind of like having that personal, trusted business advisor, that you can go to and say, Hey, I’m thinking about this helped me think through this, helped me be more strategic, helped me to have a different perspective, or think about it in a way that otherwise I wouldn’t, because we’re talking about it together.  I think that there’s a big chunk there. But I think honestly, there’s some basic leadership skills that even senior leaders never learned to do really well. So things like what I call situational leadership, when do you delegate? Delegation is really something that a lot of leaders don’t always do really. Yeah, very difficult.  How to set really good expectations for your people in terms of being able to tackle a project or even their role. When you think about communicating in coaching your people, again, really, when you think about leadership, you think about feedback, being able to give feedback, but also get feedback.  So those are a lot of the topics that I both do coaching on, as well as training, which is why I love doing both because I have the tools, I’ve got a process. I’ve got frameworks, I’ve got research that I’ve done on these topics. And then I teach them, but then I can also really easily coach people on how to access those and use them given their particular situations. And then by the way, those people that I coach, those are great examples that I can bring to training and say, Hey, here’s an example of how someone used this. Right? Beau  19:44   Aces are everything. I did something about storytelling recently. And it’s one of those effective ways to communicate. So if you worry about what happened, people can digest that easily. Winnie  19:53   That’s right. So they really do go hand in hand. But I just think those basic leadership skills, but in addition to that, I think there is a whole trusted advisor, how do I overcome this learning curve that I’m in?  And hopefully, if you’re good at what you do, and you are ambitious, in terms of learning, you’re an executive who’s constantly taking on new opportunities and new challenges. And so when we do that, I think people are looking for support. How can I think about this? How can I tackle it? How can I use what I know and apply it?  The other thing that I think is interesting about coaching, too, is that usually our strengths can be hidden weaknesses, right? And so many times what we’re really good at, we gotta keep that and we got to learn how to leverage it. But sometimes those strengths can get in our way and become our weaknesses.    So that’s like another thing to watch out for. Because again, the more senior you get, the more refined you are in terms of knowing what your strengths are. But then how do you again, embrace those blind spots, and then watch out for how your strengths might become, how they might get in your way,   Beau  21:11   Right, conversely, maybe turn weaknesses to strengths, right? as a coach, and I really liked the point you brought about delegation, and that’s something I’ve struggled with myself, it’s kind of one of the things where it’s like, I’ll just get it done myself, because it’s easier. I know what’s needed versus delegating.  I think that’s a big trap. Also, the feedback component, I think that’s critical. It’s one thing to give feedback, but you need to be in a position to receive it. And it kind of ties with the old adage that people don’t leave companies, they leave, bosses or managers or what have you. And being able to receive feedback from your team, I think is critical. And that’s hugely missed is an assumption, hugely missed opportunity for a lot of leaders out there. A great point that you bring up. Winnie  21:52  Yeah, no, I can’t emphasize that enough. And I think, honestly, Beau, the more senior you get, the less people are comfortable giving you feedback. I mean, that’s just reality, right?    So therefore, it’s on you as the senior leader, to get feedback to get real, honest, candid feedback. I did a podcast episode on my podcast with one of my mentors, and someone that I work with I’ve worked with for a long time, his name is Peter Axelsson. And he’s got an amazing approach on how to ask for feedback and how to receive feedback. And we did an episode talking about how to ask for feedback as executives because I think, unless you are constantly uncovering what your blind spots are in your working relationships, you’re not going to hear about them.  Beau  22:39   Sure. But also adds a level of vulnerability, it’s like, people are like wow, this person is human, like connected. And so, I think that that makes a tremendous amount of sense. And then when you kind of combine that with what somebody likes, you can kind of suss out of an executive. It really kind of resonates with me. Winnie  23:05   Yeah, absolutely. It could be really a game changer for people. Beau  23:10   Yeah, absolutely. So if somebody were to engage you or another business consultant, what would a typical engagement timeline look like? I mean, are you working with him indefinitely? Is this a three month kind of engagement, where you’re parachuted in, and then you’re out, what does that look like? Winnie  23:25   Yeah, good question. So, because I’ve been doing this for a while, the engagements can look really different. And so And because my main motivation is really like, where are you at? How can I help you? Let’s figure out a way that and a system and a process and an approach that works for you.  So I’ll say that I’m really flexible. And I like to figure out what’s gonna work for the person. However, typically, what I will do is do a six month engagement. And so what that would look like is, we would do I know and hopefully, honestly, that person talks to more than just me. Like, hopefully, they have a choice, right? So it’s like, hey, I’ll talk to Winnie. I’ll talk to Beau. I’ll talk to Sally, get a couple of people. And then I make a choice, right? And I feel like I’ve got some ownership.  So if you were to choose me, and we did a six month engagement, I would do a 360. So we were talking about that before, right? So I would interview three, at least three peers, three directors, three direct reports to make sure we protect confidentiality. I don’t interview your boss, but I might also interview some other senior stakeholders.  If you’re the CEO or a founder, I might also interview board members. So kind of depending on you know what your role is. So I interview people for about a half an hour and ask everyone the same question. Put together a report based on that feedback and on that data. And then and let me actually say something that’s really important, I would actually ask that person to email the people that I’m going to be interviewing.  So it’s coming from them. So the email says something like, I’m going to be working on a leadership development opportunity. I’m gonna be working with an executive coach, Winnie da Silva, she will be interviewing you, she’ll be asking you for feedback. Thank you in advance for your feedback. And please be honest. Thank you. And by the way, this isn’t happening behind the scenes, I know this is happening. I want it to happen.  Beau  25:25 That’s a great point.  Winnie  25:27 Yeah. So that’s important. Because again, it’s about ownership. And it’s about being open, about what we’re doing and why we’re doing it. We’re not hiding anything.  Anyway, collect the data, we go over the data together, then that person would create coaching goals, like what do I want to do with this data? Like, what does this mean to me, let me create some goals that I want to have as part of this coaching engagement. And then if it’s appropriate, we would meet with your boss, and you would have an opportunity to share those goals. If you want to share that report, you can. But otherwise, it’s completely up to you. So in other words, if I’m working with a company, even though they’ve hired me, and they’re paying me, I don’t share that report with anybody else except that person. Beau  26:09   You have an allegiance to the individual your coaching.    Winnie  26:12  You got it? Exactly, exactly. So if they want to share it, great. Sometimes they do. And I always point out that that’s not usual. And they obviously trust you, boss.   Beau  26:23   I think I’d want to keep my gaps a little close to the vest to be honest with you.  Winnie  26:28   Yeah, that’s fine. And that’s normal. I mean, I think that’s okay, too. So anyway, but we do meet with your boss and say, here are my goals? Are these the right ones? Like, are we aligned on what I should be working on? And by the way, boss, manager, do you have any additional feedback for this person?  So I have already started to create an environment where that person, the two people that I’m working with, their manager and the coachee, I want them to feel like they can start to share feedback with each other.  So I’m already kind of facilitating that and asking that, and so it feels more normal than maybe if it hasn’t before. So anyway, we do that. And then we meet like, usually once every other week for about an hour. But it’s an engagement, where they call me any time, text me, email me, because it’s the kind of thing where you’ve got an appointment, an important, important meeting that’s coming up, or maybe you’re struggling with something, or you just had a meeting that went sideways, and you’re like, I really want to debrief this right now. Call me like things don’t happen on a scheduled timeframe, right? Beau  27:38   To go back to kind of the trusted advisor component from mature there and safe place and somebody that can talk to you they bomb a presentation, they’re not going to call us. I mean, obviously, they want to call you so that makes sense.  And then what after this kind of six month period, or what have you? I would imagine coaching would be kind of akin to psychology, where there’s an ongoing layer of support that would probably be beneficial.  So are you kind of like, then maybe changeover to some sort of retainer base or some sort of other model where you just stay in contact kind of indefinitely? Winnie  28:13   Yeah, such a great question. So obviously it depends on the person. Usually what I’ll do is kind of as a way for closure, I’ll offer to meet again, and another month just to check in.  So there’s just kind of that check in so it doesn’t feel like it always. Even to me, it feels sort of abrupt. When we’re finished. It’s like, break it up. Yeah, no, sorry.  So, many times will offer that. But, many times also, they’ll do exactly what you said, it’s like, Okay, here’s a bank of ours, use them as you’d like, over the next x period of time. Or, sometimes, I’ve done it recently, where it’s like, okay, let’s do a whole other engagement. Maybe after six months or a year, or even two years, like, hey, Winnie, and we’d love to have you come back. Let’s do another 360, do another, let’s do this again, because Beau  29:03   It’s like tracking the progression and sure that the gaps that you’ve identified have been overcome, or at least trending in the right direction. Winnie  29:10   That’s right. That’s exactly right. So it really does depend. But it’s so fun to work with people again, and feel like, not only are you making that kind of impact, but they’re just continuing to grow. And again, like you’re just saying, trending, next challenge, that kind of thing. Beau  29:30   I’m sure there’s a huge level of gratification for you, especially if you go into a broken situation, maybe put it around and then see somebody who was kind of down and out, blossom so I’m sure that’s that’s pretty, pretty neat. Winnie  29:43   Yeah. And I mean, honestly, even when it’s not so extreme as that I mean, They’re just people who are kind of thinking through like I’ll give you an example, especially for senior executives, how do I not navigate the political landscape?  Beau  29:58   That’s one of the reasons I left corporate America because I am not political. I can’t kiss the ring. It’s not in my DNA. I think there’s a way to do it appropriately. I just didn’t learn it, I guess, you know? Winnie  30:10  Well, we all make our own choices. But if we’re in a position where I think the older you get, the more you have to figure out how to manage to navigate the political winds?  How do you navigate stakeholders, at all different levels across the enterprise, it’s not just within your department, right?  How do you navigate the enterprise? And so I think that’s what’s exciting is feeling like, Okay, I’ve knocked this out. Now, there’s another layer.  I’m working with somebody, and we’re just wrapping up. I’ve been working with him for two years, and he’s about to retire. I’ve never worked with anyone who’s about to retire. And it’s so funny, because he just really wanted to keep it going. Because, from his perspective, he felt like he learned so much. And it was kind of like, but now there’s another stage. Well, now I have to make sure that I leave everyone here, because he’s worked there for like, 35 years, feeling like they’re in a good spot. So we’ve been working through that. So anyway, it’s just really fun.  Beau  31:13   Yeah, a little bit. It’s great. So I read an article this morning, kind of prepping for the discussion. Harvard Business Review, titled, The Wild West of Executive Coaching, net of the article is that huge influx of business coaches, there’s not really any certifications, there’s not much regulation. I don’t think there’s any regulation.  And so you got this influx of coaches, not all are qualified. And this kind of goes back to your point of our discussion earlier that there’s somebody for everybody, small companies, large companies. For somebody that’s maybe think about dipping their toe out there, how could they go about vetting a potential coach, again, with it in mind that there’s been a significant influx and there’s not regulation, there’s not certification, there’s not something that states Hey, Winnie is a bona fide Executive Coach, obviously, your background suggests you are. But how can somebody kind of suss that out and really kind of determine that this is the right person for them?  Winnie  32:08   Yeah, I mean, Beau, this is like a really hot topic. In the coaching world, I mean, it really is, and honestly, I might not even be the best person to answer this question. Because I myself actually don’t have an official coaching certificate.  And in fact, when I even thought about it, part of the reason I didn’t do it is because I had already been doing it for a while, it didn’t seem like a great use of time. But many times some of these coaching certification organizations, not all of them, but some of them, to me, the kind of coaching that they’re doing is not exactly what I’m doing. Because, again, I’m coming from a business consulting perspective.  And many times, not all, but it’s like, well, just make sure you ask a lot of good questions. Don’t step in and give your opinion. And I just, I don’t feel good about that. Like, I mean, not to say that I don’t ask good questions, but it’s like, Hey, I’m coming with a lot of experience and perspectives and frameworks and ideas. And as appropriate, I want to make sure that I can share that with that person.  And again, be a real partner. But I think to answer sort of your broader question, I think that what you really need to do is do the hard work yourself, and figure out what do you really want? What are you really looking for? What are the kinds of the results that you want? Or what do you do from a personality or like, perspective? What do you think? Who do you think you’d work with best ?  The more informed you are about what it is you want the results that you want, the better choice you’re going to make. So that’s one. The second thing I would say is talk to more than two people, talk to like three, at least three or four, get a good sense of what people are bringing to the table, what their approaches, how they see coaching, and all that. And then you’re going to be again, you want to be a well informed consumer of what it is you want, because it’s you, I mean, you’re the person who’s gonna have to do the work, right? And this person is going to be a guide for you. What kind of guide do you want? Beau  34:18   I guess that’s some sage advice. So basically, you kind of do an audit of maybe your gaps or weaknesses, or more importantly, know what you’re trying to accomplish, and then map that back to the coaches’ skill set. And I think a lot as well really matters, soft skills and how you interact with that individual. Winnie  34:33   Yes.It’s interesting, because some people have picked me and obviously some people have not picked me and it’s been kind of fun. I have a colleague, and we were both up for some coaching and the first round, I got a bunch of the people that we talked to, and the second round, she got a bunch of the people that we talked to, and we’re very different and we’re actually Colleagues, we’re friends, I think we both do great coaching.  Yeah, but the way we approach things is different. And so the people that picked her, I mean, that’s great. I mean, they found someone that they really think they can work well with, and are going to be able to accomplish what they want from it. Awesome, right. And for other people, they’re picking me for the same reasons. But you got to know what you want. Beau  35:21   I think that makes sense. It all comes back to what are your objectives? Right. And I agree with you too about your opinion on the certifications. It seems like maybe you’ve kind of outgrown that as well. And I feel that far too many companies are trying to monetize the certification, and then they’re pushing lobbyists to make it kind of standard.  And then maybe you’re doing your constituents so your customers disservice by kind of working within their framework. Or it kind of limits the amount of flexibility you have. And so.  Winnie  35:50   I would totally agree with that. Yeah, no, I would totally agree with that. The one coaching certification that I know of, and of course, I’m not an expert. I don’t know all of them. But one of them that I always recommend to people if I’ve talked to people, and they’re like, I want to get certified.  So where should I go? I always recommend Icoach, which is Michael Fresh. And I can’t remember all of his colleagues’ names. But Michael Fresh with Icoach, a bunch of my colleagues and a bunch of clients that I recommended, go there have all had a great experience.  I think it’s like four months, it’s not a heavy lift. They’re very flexible in terms of the way that they teach you their approach to their model. It’s really good. But you’re right. I think many times, other organizations are kind of monetizing it and sort of like you have to and this is the way it’s supposed to be. But it’s like again, you need to do your own work. Like, what’s out there? What do you want to do? What approach would work best for you? And do the homework? Beau  36:52   Yeah, I totally agreed. So, two more questions.  Any other tidbits, thoughts, or otherwise, that somebody should consider when thinking about maybe bringing an Executive Coach into the fold? Winnie  37:05   Yeah. And when you mean, are you talking about from an organizational perspective, or from like, I want coaching myself? Beau  37:12   Oh, just maybe I want coaching myself, what just some considerations be maybe, in that regard? Winnie  37:19   So a couple of considerations to think about, do you have the time? Are you really committed to spending the time doing this work, because again, I’m only as good as the person of coaching.  If you’re committed, you’re hungry for growth, you’re hungry to take it to the next level, in your career, and in your role, and what you’re trying to do, I’m excited to work with you. But at the same time, you also have to carve out the time that it’s going to take, and not just in our conversations, I’m talking about, the way that you think, the way you’re spending your time, how you approach things and how you’re thinking about things.  If those things aren’t changing, or you’re not spending time, being thoughtful about that. The work that we do an hour, every other week, is not going to cut it. This has to be a project, in a commitment that you’re taking on.  So I think that’s definitely something to consider. And I think just being open minded, it’s like being excited about it. I mean, the people that I’ve worked with, that I think have done really well. They have really enjoyed the process, they’ve really enjoyed learning, learning about themselves in a new way.  They want to see things from a different perspective, tell me how you’d see this. Let’s look at it together from a different perspective. How else could we look at it? What kind of business results do you want to get in? And let’s back into that in terms of how you might need to change the way you think about things? How you act, your behavior, your behavior is a big part of that. What part of this do you need to own? What part isn’t your fault that you need to figure out how to manage and work with other people so that your relationships are sound? So those are some of the things that come to mind. Beau  39:07   Make sense. Yeah. Awesome stuff. Thanks so much for your time, Winnie. How can people get a hold of you? Where can they find you? Winnie  39:13   Sure. So I’m on LinkedIn, Winnie da Silva. I also have a website that you can find me on, which is just www.winniedasilva.com. And take a listen to my podcasts because it’s a kind of a nice way to get a taste of coaching in general, but get to know some really awesome leaders that I interview as well. Beau  39:39   That’s awesome. We’ll be sure to add your contact info to the end of this, this video and sincerely, thanks so much. Love the conversation. Thanks for joining. Really appreciate it. Winnie  9:50   Thank you, Beau. Thanks a lot.